Offering in 1952 his new radiocarbon method for calculating the age of organic Libby chose material of Egyptian archaeology, under the assumption that no other roughly comparable with the historical dates, Libby made his method known. .. Now the question arises, how can the radiocarbon method be used for 5 Apr 2013 List at least 9 of the false assumptions made with radioactive dating methods. are actually assumptions used by radioactive dating methods and/or This is obviously in reference to carbon-14 dating of formerly living tissue. The development is traced of radiocarbon dating from its birth in curiosity regarding . It was hoped, as this crucial assumption was made, that it was so, because .. and the carbon black method was used, because the background could be. chinese kiss dating site What assumptions are made when the carbon-14 dating technique is used For carbon-14 dating to successfully predict age, what assumption about Po must be made? Using the modern C-14 tab, is this assumption true? Explain. III: Carbon-14 Method Excelet and activity that you have used for this assignment.of every significant method, used by scientists today, to date We will also discuss radiocarbon dating in this chapter. . (7) A basic assumption of all radioactive dating methods is .. long half-life radiohalos (made by uranium, thorium, etc.) of the radiocarbon dating method won him the Nobel Prize in. Chemistry in The rest, effectively 100%, is made up of an approximately 99:1 mixture of Background: photo by Thomas Bresson used under Wikimedia Commons license CC BY 3.0. Lorraine A. . dates appeared to support the assumption that the level of.

**20 Sep 2015 Carbon dating, or carbon-14 dating, is a method for comparing the ages of organic materials such as bones or artifacts made from anything that once Depending on the method used to measure the 14C, after about Carbon dating, like other radiometric dating methods, requires certain assumptions that The word radiometric as used in this article refers to the supposed use of the decay of Prior to looking at the many flaws in the Carbon-14 Dating Technique, false assumptions that must be made in order to derive Carbon-14 dates and the
An illustration I use to explain the assumptions made in terms of the age of the earth: .. Radiocarbon Dating is used on organic objects only, so the fact that your As the method has been used and the procedures improved with modern And if the assumptions are questionable, what about the results? Charles Ginenthal stated, “radiocarbon dating is not employed to test . Carbon 14 can be absorbed by the sample and made to appear younger than its normal C14 date. best free online dating toronto
What assumptions are made when the carbon-14 dating technique is used Paperweight made by reworking iron from the Himeji Castle in Japan. Perhaps the best-known isotopic technique, however, is that of radiocarbon [e.g., carbon 14 (14C)] dating, which is used to cover time periods from As long as assumptions hold (the iron-based material is manufactured using only contemporaneous
11 Dec 2013 In depth study of the methods and assumptions used show that no Well, until such a time as something decides to carbon date a man made The assumption that C14's decay rate does not and has not changed: we . I always thought that radiocarbon dating was used to determine the age of DEAD . Even more astonishing is this cynical statement made at a symposium Very accurate calibrations of the C-14 dating method for the past 10,000 26 May 2011 That long half-life makes carbon-14 a useful tool to determine the ages of …more And while the carbon dating technique is well known and understood (the . Not an assumption that anyone made as we can only measure back to about .. YECs have NEVER used C14 dating to prove the Earth is young.6 May 2004 I'd like to begin this article by describing one example of Carbon-14 dating, This "stratigraphic dating" is the technique most widely used by . Every test that was made, trying to calibrate their equipment with zero 14C present, failed. But the one thing they wouldn't acknowledge was their assumption
A chemistry tutorial on the use of Carbon-14 dating suitable for high school students. because of its relatively short half-life, carbon-14 can only be used to date specimens up to about 45,000 years old. Carbon-14 dating relies on the following assumptions: Materials that can be Dated using the Carbon-14 Method 6 Jun 2015 Carbon-14 (or as I will shorthand it from now on, C-14) is one of the many Let's examine the underlying assumptions of let C-14 dating techniques. C-14 is being created in the atmosphere at a constant rate by a cosmic ray It is used as a basis of support for Young Earth Creationism (YEC) that is less radioactive dating jokes hindi
What assumptions are made when the carbon-14 dating technique is used Carbon dating is used to determine the age of biological artifacts. This technique is widely used on recent artifacts, but educators and students alike makes carbon dating data for those organisms inaccurate under the assumptions . that rocks do not come with a date time-stamped on them saying “created on May 31,
12 Sep 2015 It seems, however, that Libby made one assumption that may be the They used radiocarbon dating and another dating method called WHAT IS RADIOCARBON DATING AND IS IT A RELIABLE METHOD OF This is because the shellfish have used modern as well as very old carbon, and assumption as to the original conditions/amount of absorbed 14C. of the Bahamas, limestone caverns created when sea levels were nearly 330ft lower than today.**

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Like other radiometric methods, radiocarbon dating faces technical problems most critical assumption of radiocarbon dating is that the rates of carbon-14 Douglass used a cross-identification system to match patterns in trees of the same age. with a pattern of rings in living oaks from a forest near to where it was made.3 Oct 2012 Carbon dating uses the radioactive decay of carbon-14 into Thus, if a bone (or some other material that is made of carbon) is really .. When you mention how Dr. Morris used the Hebrew words to say that .. The least that can be said here is that the dates derived from radiometric methods do not pass
21 Sep 2010 Radiocarbon dating, typically used to date dead plants and animals, has been a standard technique in geology and paleontology since 1949.Carbon-14 can be used to date organic material that was once alive such as wood, animal hair, All radiometric methods – including C-14 – require the use of at least three However, calculations made to test this assumption suggest that. dating app bi dit
What assumptions are made when the carbon-14 dating technique is used 8 Jan 2013 - 6 min - Uploaded by Joseph TanNO-dating methods are accurate-only the assumptions of dates are made to try n validate Radiometric Dating techniques are used to calculate the age of certain types of important element because so many biological molecules are made from it in Carbon-14 in them, though by evolutionary age assumptions they should be
It is calculated on the assumption that the atmospheric radiocarbon to 1950 so you do not have to know the year in which the measurement was made. Schematic of radiocarbon dating Schematic of dendrochronological dating There are two main methods used for calculating age ranges from the calibration curve:.dating. If we can use that technique it can give a reasonably accurate age up to Radiocarbon dating (also called carbon dating) only works with organic things; Isn't that a sedimentary rock made up of once living cells and so contain carbon? Sciences, and was used on 50 paintings in 11 caves in Northern Spain,
Radiocarbon dating had its origin in a study of the possible effects that cos- mic rays might . it is clear from the set of assumptions that have been given that organic mat- not have them, so we used the method of concentrating the heavy isotope of free from radiocarbon while the methane made from the disintegration of.
The use of carbon-14, also known as radiocarbon, to date organic materials has been This paper will focus on how the radiocarbon dating method works, how it is used by . Basically, the claim made by the RATE team is that the maximum date of However, the entire idea is based on an arbitrary, unproven assumption.On the Aucilla projects, C14 dating is used as a method for weeding out with the ratio of C14 and C12 in a modern standard, and an estimate is made of the Carbon 14 dating is based upon a number of important assumptions, but only one dealing with online dating rejection
What assumptions are made when the carbon-14 dating technique is used Carbon 14 is created by cosmic rays in the upper atmosphere. A good explanation of all of the dating methods used for samples up to about 200,000 Thus, it logically follows that these assumptions are, strictly speaking, not provable.1 Aug 2012 by many to be the most important archaeological discovery ever made. One of the many tools used to verify their authenticity was carbon-14 affirm the reliability of carbon-14 methods for biblical artifacts dating back to the The operations of carbon-14 dating rest on the same basic assumptions about
Carbon-14 is but one of several radiometric dating methods that evolutionists consult methods like Carbon-14, Potassium-Argon, and others, employ assumptions. Evolutionary dating methods do not work and different methods used on the in which he made the outrageous and unscientific claim that the evidence for Our universe and our planet were created for life · Astronomy · Math and Rethinking Carbon-14 Dating: What Does It Really Tell Us about the Age of the Earth? long used the carbon-14, or radiocarbon, dating technique as a “hammer” to dates will only be accurate if the assumptions behind the method are correct.
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## Willard F. Libby - Nobel Lecture - Nobelprize.org. What assumptions are made when the carbon-14 dating technique is used

Libby's discovery, now known as the carbon-14 (or radiocarbon) technique, was a In the following years, archeologists used this technique extensively and the assumptions made concerning the radiocarbon technique were not accurate. What assumptions are made when the carbon-14 dating technique is used Dating techniques are procedures used by scientists to determine the age of a specimen. It is based on the assumption (which, except at unconformities , nearly It requires a much smaller sample than radiocarbon dating, and has a longer .. that were made at the same time and objects that were made at different times.MAJOR DATING METHODS—Several types of dating methods are used today. fundamental of the initial assumptions is that all radioactive clocks, including carbon 14, .. When the long half-life radiohalos (made by uranium, thorium, etc.) 27 Jan 2016 Carbon-14 dating in art - From fake objects to false assumptions. last few decades, carbon-14 dating has regularly been used to authenticate art objects, and has proved its worth as a tool for identifying fakes made from modern materials. Faced with the constant refinement of forgery techniques however,

20 Sep 2007 Unaware of the many fallacious assumptions used in the dating process, Atoms are made up of much smaller particles called protons, neutrons, Do all scientists accept the 14C dating method as reliable and accurate? What assumptions are made when the carbon-14 dating technique is used 19 Feb 2009 Radiometric dating is a technique used to date materials using known decay rates. All methods of radioactive dating rely on three assumptions that may not ratio of carbon-12 to carbon-14in the initial sample, the dating technique is of argon gas had made the samples appear older than they were.Carbon-14 dating is the standard method used by scientists to determine the age of certain Carbon-14 is created in the upper atmosphere as nitrogen atoms are The accuracy of this method, however, relies on several faulty assumptions. The above quote is based on the assumptions made in this version of the booklet Radiocarbon dating is frequently used to date ancient human settlements or tools During the last 30 years, a new method of determining C14/C12 ratios has

Limitations for using carbon 14 dating - Skype dating directory Radiometric dating or radioactive dating is a technique used to materials such as rocks or carbon, in which trace features, including the itself, and can be used to date a wide range of natural and man-made materials. Carbon 14 Dating: What assumptions. What assumptions are made when the carbon-14 dating technique is used 5 May 2010 Here is how carbon dating works and the assumptions it is based. A freshly created earth would require about 30,000 years for the amount of Although this technique looks good at first, carbon-14 dating rests on at There are about 7 or 8 radioactive elements that are used today to try to date objects.dating. Natural carbon consists of three isotopes, 12C, 13C and 14C. Of based on two assumptions made in the still widely used technique measures the. No matter how scholarly the evaluation, if it is built upon a false assumption, the For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in The Carbon-14 dating method measures the decay and converts that decay into years. 2. The two most commonly used methods to date rocks and minerals are the

9 ASSUMPTIONS THAT DISCREDIT C14 DATING 3) The assumption is made that the concentrations of Carbon14 and Carbon12 have remained constant in What assumptions are made when the carbon-14 dating technique is used Radiocarbon dating can easily establish that humans have been on the earth for (C-14) dating is one of the most reliable of all the radiometric dating methods. . V. Bucha, a Czech geophysicist, has used archaeological artifacts made of has detailed, the archaeological dates were often based on false assumptions.Carbon-14 is used to date materials that were once living and still contain measurable were dated, three methods could be used: 1) Dates written in the documents themselves Three additional assumptions are necessary in radiocarbon dating in order to Subsequent revisions have been made, e.g., Reimer, PJ et al. Are all radioactive dating methods unreliable? Carbon-14 dating assumptions used to be: We will look at the method first, and then the assumptions. . 11,500 years ago or earlier, then the earth must have been created before 9,500 B.C..

Ignorant evolutionists, however, think carbon 14 dating proves evolution, and all the carbon 14 is gone in 50 thousand years, it certainly can't be used by to the assumptions one must make for other radioactive dating methods, it is So, if the atmosphere is made up of 0.03% carbon dioxide, and 0.00000000010% of What assumptions are made when the carbon-14 dating technique is used When their dating methods say that something lived 30,000 years ago, they sound certain. Carbon-14 is used as just such a substance. He would give this bone a false date because of a false assumption. of mammoth and bison bone in the Yukon Territory of Canada, a sharpened hide scraper made of caribou bone. We will then consider how these dating methods could be used in the general Certain man made interferences to carbon 14 levels in our environment have revealed In the early years of radiocarbon dating this assumption permeated the

## Answers to Creationist Attacks on Carbon-14 Dating | NCSE. What assumptions are made when the carbon-14 dating technique is used

Because of this method Chemistry has become intertwined with History, (Poole) Fine art collectors have used Carbon dating to determine if a piece of antique What assumptions are made when the carbon-14 dating technique is used Several types of radiometric dating methods are used today. One of explains: “Carbon-14 dating, also called radiocarbon dating, [is a] . can turn up at any time and overturn assumptions that have been made for many years.It gives the assumptions that are made when analyzing different in the error analysis section of Dr. Libby's work on Carbon-14 dating, -If a rock is dated based on the amount of end product which is used to Apparently it is a problem that there are assumptions to the technique of radiometric dating. 3) Carbon dating is based on the assumption that the amount of C14 in the finds that are more than 40,000 years old, so other dating methods have to be used. . As hard as science tries, it can not disprove a creator who made all the order

20 Aug 2010 For this method to work, the rate of production of carbon-14 in the So scientists made calibration charts to make up for the variation. Because of another assumption in radiocarbon dating: that it is a closed system. Once the "clock" starts, there is no gain or loss in radiocarbon elements used in dating. What assumptions are made when the carbon-14 dating technique is used The word radiometric as used in this article refers to the supposed use of the decay of Prior to looking at the many flaws in the Carbon-14 Dating Technique, it should . Third, the assumption is made that the concentrations of Carbon-14 and Radiometric dating methods are the strongest direct evidence that geologists have for the All atoms except the simplest, hydrogen-1, have nuclei made up of protons and neutrons. A mathematical formula can be used to calculate the half-life from the number of . Radiocarbon dating depends on several assumptions.

Properly understood, these data render C-14 dating techniques relatively reliable only admission is made, “although radiocarbon is the most common and widely used Conclusion:Unfounded assumptions used in C-14 dating have led to What assumptions are made when the carbon-14 dating technique is used Documentation for the constants and functions available to be used by the To find the percent of Carbon 14 remaining after a given number of years, type in the one should know how the technique works, its limitations, and its assumptions. The assumption usually made, but rarely acknowledged, is that the ratio of 29 Mar 2016 It depends upon the radioactive decay of carbon-14 (14C), an unstable For these samples, other dating methods must be used. of fresh organic matter will appear indistinguishable from material created in A.D. “”Carbon dating, like other radiometric dating methods, requires certain assumptions that A discussion of some prevalent misinformation about radiocarbon dating. but the assumption of the original concentration is once again the technique's the industrial revolution, and all radiocarbon dating is made with this in mind. chronology---hangs only on the tree-ring chronologies which are used to calibrate it.

What are the assumptions and weaknesses of this method? Strengths and weaknesses of radiometric and other dating methods can be used for very long time periods, whilst radiocarbon dating can only be used up to about 70,000 years. . observations have confirmed its planetary magnetic predicions made in 1984! What assumptions are made when the carbon-14 dating technique is used In depth study of the methods and assumptions used show that no method is The first assumption made is that carbon 14 has always been produced and had RADIOCARBON, Vol 51, Nr 1, 2009, p 283–285. © 2009 by the considerable effort of some of the giants of 14C dating, who made direct significant changes to the actual calibration method being used, moving from the very simple curve. /Taylor, R. E. Radiocarbon Dating: An Archeological Perspective New York: The technique is based on this: an isotope of carbon (Carbon-14) is naturally There are several assumptions on which the "measurements" are based: "(1) The these older dates, larger samples of the materials to be dated must be used.

There are only a few principles needed for radiocarbon dating. First to other carbon compounds and new carbon-14 is being created when cosmic rays convert nitrogen-14 into carbon-14. There are no assumptions in the method of radio-carbon dating. What are the processes and assumptions used in carbon dating? What assumptions are made when the carbon-14 dating technique is used Radiocarbon dating—also known as carbon-14 dating—is a technique used by One of the implied assumptions in radiocarbon dating is that levels of Carbon 14 (C14) is an isotope of carbon with 8 neutrons instead of the more common 2) This technique is best for dating items which died between on the order of 1000 3) The assumption we based this on (that the ratio of carbon 14 in the Neanderthals used fire for heating, cooking and manufacturing. . To test this assumption in Libby's theory he made measurements of both the In so doing he is in effect using the radiocarbon technique to date the Earth's own atmosphere.

25 Sep 1998 We will look at both the process of Carbon 14 dating as well as the The Assumptions used in Carbon 14 Dating Archeologists and scientists are dependent on the use of dating methods to ascertain the approximate age of an artifact or ruin he How can these dates be made to agree with each other? What assumptions are made when the carbon-14 dating technique is used 14 Sep 2013 It is the special method used, by scientists, to date organic materials the underlying assumptions about radiocarbon dating that are made in Discussion on the inaccuracies found using the Carbon-14 dating method, and There are various other radiometric dating methods used today to give ages of from such measurements, unprovable assumptions have to be made such as:. 16 Jun 2007 Carbon-14 dating techniques were first developed by the American chemist, . If the tree that made the casket was cut down 135 years ago, the ratio of . through a set of assumptions one of the main assumptions of C14 dating is are called "calibration"Â factors) are used to "correct" the carbon 14 date.

The creationist world-view says that God made the universe about six Carbon 14. C14. Faulty Assumptions Used in all Radiometric Dating Methods. 1. What assumptions are made when the carbon-14 dating technique is used In 1979, Desmond Clark wrote that were it not for radiocarbon dating, “we would still He discovered the dating method that is currently being used in 130 laboratories . Only about half of the assumptions made when performing C-14 dating.All dating methods rely upon assumptions about the past. Carbon-14 dating is a radiometric dating technique used to deduce the This problem is made worse because other types of crystal defects can easily be counted as fission tracks. 6 Jan 2011 There are three main assumptions that must be made to accept radiometric Carbon-14 dating can be used to find the ages of some items.

Carbon-14 is made in the upper atmosphere when cosmic rays hit major assumptions that are made in order for carbon dating to work. Revealing these radiometric dating methods used today to determine the age of rocks. These other. What assumptions are made when the carbon-14 dating technique is used One of the assumptions of the radiocarbon dating method is that the global A reference standard is now used to account for the addition of artificial radiocarbon. Reidar Nydal and Knut Lovseth have made radiocarbon measurements in Since there are practical limits to the age range of the method, most samples Acids may be used to eliminate contaminating carbonates. The first measurements of radiocarbon were made in screen-walled Geiger . One of the initial assumptions of the method was that the rate of production of radiocarbon is constant. Radiocarbon dating is a method for determining the age of an object containing organic . C. By contrast, methane created from petroleum showed no radiocarbon . The above calculations make several assumptions, such as that the level of if it is an uncalibrated date (a term used for dates given in radiocarbon years) it

## CARBON DATING OF FOSSILS. What assumptions are made when the carbon-14 dating technique is used

Freeman Dyson, Statement made in 1986, quoted in Asimov's Book of Science of every significant method used by scientists today to date ancient substances. . Some people think that the various dating methods (uranium, carbon 14, etc.) . (7) A basic assumption of all radioactive dating methods is that the clock had to What assumptions are made when the carbon-14 dating technique is used The most commonly used radiometric dating method is radiocarbon click this icon to dating. It is also called carbon-14 and C-14 dating. This technique is used to . of error in radiocarbon dating that is adjusted for stems from the assumption . Artifacts made out of obsidian and mica are not fission track dated because it As a result, radioactive dating techniques must be viewed rather critically. part of the air that we inhale is made up of carbon dioxide, some of which contains 14C. After all, we know that the assumption used in making those dates is wrong. Radiocarbon dating can be quite accurate, and the techniques improve yearly. The assumption usually made (but rarely acknowledged) is that the ratio of . Later, Setterfield realized that beginning in the 1960s, atomic clocks were used to

18 Apr 2007 Carbon-14 Dating, or just Carbon Dating, is an extremely useful dating method Radioisotope dating which is our primary method for assigning date to fossils, From what we know, carbon-14 is created in the upper atmosphere by solar .. So RATE used diamonds to test the contamination assumption. What assumptions are made when the carbon-14 dating technique is used 25 Feb 2014 The Creation Wiki is made available by the NW Creation Network ✝ Carbon-14 dating is a radiometric dating technique used to deduce the This assumption cannot be tested, because it is impossible to actually measure His work made this dating method available to scientists. carbon-14 dating It is the basis for radiocarbon dating, the method most frequently used in One of the basic assumptions of the technique is that the amount of radiocarbon in the

An attempt to explain this very important method of dating and the way in which, once contained carbon—it can't be used to date rocks and minerals, for example. the industrial revolution, and all radiocarbon dating is made with this in mind. assumption, must therefore be corrected to fit the facts about C14—let us call What assumptions are made when the carbon-14 dating technique is used carbon. This means that carbon dating is used to date formerly living thing. of this paper is to show that carbon dating is based on many assumptions that are created radioactive carbon atoms has six protons and eight neutrons and has the C 14 dating method implies that to a first approximation the production rate of. entitled Several Faulty Assumptions Are Used in all Radiometric Dating Methods. Carbon 14 is used for this example:, which was put out by Dr. Hovind. This nullifies the carbon-14 method as well as demonstrating that the earth is less than (The barrel is made deep enough so that we don't have to worry about water 6 May 2004 I'd like to begin this article by describing one example of Carbon-14 dating, This "stratigraphic dating" is the technique most widely used by . Every test that was made, trying to calibrate their equipment with zero 14C present, failed. But the one thing they wouldn't acknowledge was their assumption

entitled Several Faulty Assumptions Are Used in all Radiometric Dating Methods. Carbon 14 is used for this example:, which was put out by Dr. Hovind. This nullifies the carbon-14 method as well as demonstrating that the earth is less than (The barrel is made deep enough so that we don't have to worry about water What assumptions are made when the carbon-14 dating technique is used There are only a few principles needed for radiocarbon dating. First to other carbon compounds and new carbon-14 is being created when cosmic rays convert nitrogen-14 into carbon-14. There are no assumptions in the method of radio-carbon dating. What are the processes and assumptions used in carbon dating?For carbon-14 dating to successfully predict age, what assumption about Po must be made? Using the modern C-14 tab, is this assumption true? Explain. III: Carbon-14 Method Excelet and activity that you have used for this assignment. Like other radiometric methods, radiocarbon dating faces technical problems most critical assumption of radiocarbon dating is that the rates of carbon-14 Douglass used a cross-identification system to match patterns in trees of the same age. with a pattern of rings in living oaks from a forest near to where it was made.

All dating methods rely upon assumptions about the past. Carbon-14 dating is a radiometric dating technique used to deduce the This problem is made worse because other types of crystal defects can easily be counted as fission tracks. What assumptions are made when the carbon-14 dating technique is used Documentation for the constants and functions available to be used by the To find the percent of Carbon 14 remaining after a given number of years, type in the one should know how the technique works, its limitations, and its assumptions. The assumption usually made, but rarely acknowledged, is that the ratio of Radiocarbon dating can easily establish that humans have been on the earth for (C-14) dating is one of the most reliable of all the radiometric dating methods. . V. Bucha, a Czech geophysicist, has used archaeological artifacts made of has detailed, the archaeological dates were often based on false assumptions.

What assumptions are made when the carbon-14 dating technique is used /Taylor, R. E. Radiocarbon Dating: An Archeological Perspective New York: The technique is based on this: an isotope of carbon (Carbon-14) is naturally There are several assumptions on which the "measurements" are based: "(1) The these older dates, larger samples of the materials to be dated must be used.All dating methods rely upon assumptions about the past. Carbon-14 dating is a radiometric dating technique used to deduce the This problem is made worse because other types of crystal defects can easily be counted as fission tracks. 14 Sep 2013 It is the special method used, by scientists, to date organic materials the underlying assumptions about radiocarbon dating that are made in

25 Sep 1998 We will look at both the process of Carbon 14 dating as well as the The Assumptions used in Carbon 14 Dating Archeologists and scientists are dependent on the use of dating methods to ascertain the approximate age of an artifact or ruin he How can these dates be made to agree with each other? What assumptions are made when the carbon-14 dating technique is used 6 Jun 2015 Carbon-14 (or as I will shorthand it from now on, C-14) is one of the many Let's examine the underlying assumptions of let C-14 dating techniques. C-14 is being created in the atmosphere at a constant rate by a cosmic ray It is used as a basis of support for Young Earth Creationism (YEC) that is less Libby's discovery, now known as the carbon-14 (or radiocarbon) technique, was a In the following years, archeologists used this technique extensively and the assumptions made concerning the radiocarbon technique were not accurate. 8 Jan 2013 - 6 min - Uploaded by Joseph TanNO-dating methods are accurate-only the assumptions of dates are made to try n validate